Dana H. Born:  So welcome to another how, conversation on moral leadership today we have with us the president of Howard University, the 17th president of Howard University, Dr Wayne Frederick, a great how, friend and partner and moral leader exemplified in his life, as you will soon learn so Dr. Wayne Frederick, welcome to our how conversation on moral leadership. How are you and where are you?

Dr. Wayne Frederick: Thanks for having me. I’m actually doing very, very well. I’m fantastic. I’m on my sabbatical after retiring from the presidency last September. So I’m having a good time. I like to say I’m retired. I’m doing what I want to do, when I want to do it, with who I want to do it. So that’s being in a very good place right now. And I am currently actually in Trinidad and Tobago, where I had committed to visit at least once a month to basically counsel high schools students on applying for colleges to colleges and universities. And I also do a little bit of education teacher development as well. And my wife and I also have some philanthropic causes that we’re supporting here as well.

Dana H. Born: You’re back home because you were born in the Port of Spain, Trinidad, so I would say, Welcome back home, and you’re committed to your roots, back where you were born with sickle cell disease, and your mom, who said as a role model, probably for you, where you were hospitalized for quite some time, two to six times a year, and maybe that had something to do with your being interested in science and giving back to the community. But you also saw in your mom, role model in her workplace as a nurse, you went on to Howard University in 1988 at 16 years old, in a dual degree, Bachelor of Science and also medical degree in a dual degree program at a very young age, began your career as an associate director for the Cancer Center at the University of Connecticut and then many positions I would call Howard University maybe your Second home. You might call it your first home, since you spent so much time there as Associate Dean in the College of Medicine, division chief in the department of surgery, director of the Cancer Center, and also Deputy Provost for Health Sciences. Congratulations on your long and successful tenure as the president of Howard University. So let’s start with our first question, and it’s a hallmark of moral leadership, and that’s the practice of the pause. So let’s pause together, and maybe you can start at the beginning to tell us a little bit about your upbringing, experience that shaped your early years, and your family, other people that influenced you, share with us a bit of your journey.

Dr. Wayne Frederick: Sure you know, as you mentioned, I was born here in 1971 I mentioned a year because it was a year after the government of Trinidad Tobago, the public healthcare system, started mandatory testing for sickle cell anemia, which is a hemoglobin disorder. My mom, being a nurse, as you mentioned, was so concerned that we stayed literally yards away from the hospital for the first six months of my life. And then subsequent to that, I think my mom really put a lot of energy into, you know, my well being, dedication and effort was superhuman in so many ways. The other thing that was very influential was my grandmother, you know, at age three, I overheard it talking about sickle cell to some friends, and kind of made it, you know, usual toddler inquiry about what they were talking about, and she kind of best explained to me. And as she tells the story, I rode away on my tricycle and came back and told that I was going to become a doctor, and she instilled confidence in me. She never once questioned my desire to become a doctor. She would always tell me that if that’s what I wanted to do, that’s what would happen. And so the other thing that I think is important is, especially for younger people, instilling confidence in them, and I think that that’s one of the roles that we as mentors have to play, because that’s true that she played.

Dana H. Born: The essence of your passion is in your story, and especially as you talk about your mom and your grandmother, and it gives us maybe a little insight into what has driven you, and you’ve spoken a lot about amplifying humanity, and we’re getting to see a little bit of where that comes from. I’m curious if you’d share with our listeners, when you talk about amplifying humanity and the importance of that, what does that mean to you? What does that look like in your advice for all of us?

Dr. Wayne Frederick: Yeah, you know, today we live. In a very fast paced world where the human interaction is often overlooked. I think the pandemic really taught us about that the essence of the human condition is interaction, is engagement. Even the introverts among us, we don’t want people to come and talk to us, but we want to be around them. And so that human interaction, which I think is the essence of the human condition, is extremely important. And today, with all of the political divide, etc., I think we’re living in a time where we’re passive about other people’s humanity. If somebody disagrees with us, we think it’s sufficient to just ignore them and to stay away from them. I often say to people, it’s great to be a leader who can make sweeping changes, come up with great ideas. But the reality is, every day, when we get up and we navigate our days, whether it’s meeting somebody in an elevator and just simply saying hi, how are you asking someone what their name is,

Dana H. Born: it gives it a little bit more to each of us each day to figure out how to do that. We’re lucky to have you participate in our house summit back in 2022 and talking about some of these challenges that we’re up against, you gave a wonderful quote that reads as this, we’re trying to solve sometimes problems that are big and global, and we don’t recognize the role that we play. Some of the big problems we want to solve are really solved on a personal, day to day basis. And when we talk about morality and compassion, we don’t have to go solve world peace before we can solve something for the person in front of us at the How Institute, we often talk about humility and letting our purpose lead when we’re solving problems. Maybe you could help us understand how you instill that kind of a mindset for people that are in or emerging to both being having formal authority but also moral authority in shaping an organization’s culture? Yeah,

Dr. Wayne Frederick: you know, I think it’s a great question. I think for young people, it’s often a challenge, because they see people in peril based on major news events, based on, you know, major global events, and oftentimes they fail to recognize what is happening right in their backyard, right? And the example I use for that is how the university is in the nation’s capital, a black woman who is pregnant in Washington, DC is three times more likely to die during her pregnancy or during giving birth than in so many other countries around the world, but when we talk about black maternal health and solving that problem, we have students who go on missions to Haiti and be very concerned about a pregnant woman in Haiti, but right there in Ward seven and eight in Washington, DC, they would ignore that. So I think we have an opportunity every day if we open our aperture wide enough to see what’s right in front of us, because sometimes our appetite gets so focused on, you know, wars that are so far away from us, or people who are in famine so far from us, but yet still we drive by people every day we were poor, who are hungry, and we almost ignore them. It’s almost like we can’t see them, because our opportunities and open wide, you know?

Dana H. Born: So I like you know, the way that you’re phrasing how we can act. Some people use the word local when we have these big global, global challenges, but how do we also be sure we’re paying attention locally? And in that I know that this is hard work, and sometimes people get fatigue or burnout, and you, in particular, right taking on these big challenges locally and globally, what is how you balance or integrate or harmonize tackling some of these challenges to ensure you’re kind of good tired at the end of the day. And you know, how do we kind of approach life as a marathon, not a sprint?

Dr. Wayne Frederick: Every day, when you get home, you should ask yourself two questions, what did I do today? And what? How well did I do it? How much better can I do tomorrow? And the second question should be, what didn’t I do today that I should be sure to do tomorrow? Part of it is, you know, to some extent, despite my sickle cell, I’ve been blessed with what I like to describe as a joy that comes and that brings you a stamina. And that joy for life is something that gives you almost an interminable clock. I think, I think if you could get up every day and be curious about almost everything around you, every taxi, cab ride, every plane, ride, the person next to you, everything, I think in life I come across I’m curious about. And I think if you I tried to live with that openness to learn from the. And everything around me every day, but also to be willing to engage, you know, in every way. And I think I ask myself that every evening, you know, what could I have done better?

Dana H. Born: And I love that, that you accept that we as humans are imperfect, and yet you in your striving to be better, each day, I hear an underlying level of gratitude too for the opportunities that you’ve been given. This question I’d like to ask next goes back to your time as the Howard University president, where you had so many stakeholders, faculty, students, staff, alumni, parents, friends, also in the Washington, DC area. I’m sure you could add to that list of people where you were interacting with. And so you must have a framework that has helped you navigate through these multiple challenges that you faced, including the covid time period, funding challenges, protests. I mean, I know the list goes on for you. How did you approach those types of situations? What frameworks were useful for you?

Dr. Wayne Frederick: Yeah, you know that there were a few things, a few principles I tried to use, because especially being a university president, I think there’s so many constituents, all of whom want something different. I think that’s the key, and that’s what, that’s part of, what makes that job difficult. But I try to use a few principles in the middle of a crisis. One of my principles was that I always try to maintain equanimity under us. It’s a surgical principle. If I’m operating and, you know, patient starts bleeding or something goes wrong, I don’t get the two instruments and, you know, have a fit as it would. I have to get very focused in the middle of a crisis. It’s almost like you need to slow everything down in the operating room. And I try to bring that same principle to managing and leading people to recognize that we all need to take a deep breath sometimes and just step back, especially in today’s world of social media and communications, everybody wants to put out a message quick. Everybody wants to get ahead of the news cycle when it’s written. In fact, what we should be focused on is a problem at hand. The second thing is recognizing that everybody is in a critical part of the team, and whether this is a myth or not, I’ve heard a story told several times about President Kennedy being at the Space Center and running into janitor who was cleaning the floor, and asking him, what does he do? And he says, I send people to the moon, and so I always try to recognize and elevate all the members of the team so that they see the importance of what they do. The person who is the security guard who’s cleaning the floor there at Howard University to provide students and education. And you know, this is the week of graduation, and that week of graduation, I always say to the staff, especially, I want you to enjoy this just as much as the parents do, just as much as the faculty do, because you’ve contributed to making the world a better place by providing people with an education, and that’s ultimately what we do. So having everybody in the organization be appreciated, but also see the bigger picture is important.

Dana H. Born: I love the term equanimity under duress and how you scale that. It reminds me of that parable of the bricklayer the building a wall, or building a cathedral, and how you do that, one of them it sounds like, is to recognize those you know what it looks like at all levels. How do you ensure from the top, like your moral authority and being in a position of moral authority, hopefully, the two together. How do you ensure people at the lowest levels, including your students, embrace that?

Dr. Wayne Frederick: Yeah, you know, I think part of it is that they have to see you as humane as possible. For many, many years, I did not talk about my sickle cell or my dad committing suicide, because I felt that as a leader, I needed to exemplify strength, and that, you know, when you did those things, people didn’t necessarily see the humility in you. They see, you know, they see weakness. We have to bring our full selves to work, and we have to make people realize that, and we also have to recognize that we’re fallible, and have people recognize that even as your leader, there are times that you’re not going to get it right, and you have to be comfortable admitting when you don’t get it right as well. And

Dana H. Born: certainly, your journey helps us to see and love you more as who you are and why you are and what makes you tick. And that’s true for all of us, and that’s a wonderful message. I want to shift a little bit, if we can, into now the difficult place that higher ed is in, that epicenter of cultural debates and even world debates. And as a university president, especially for the length of time you served in our nation. Capital, there’s so many stakeholders that you needed to shepherd through a lot of divisive debates, difficult, courageous kind of conversations. Share with us what you learned about framing conversations at Howard University as a university president,

Dr. Wayne Frederick: yeah, you know, it’s complicated, but that I often describe our university as the most public private institution. We’re one of two non military institutions that receive a federal appropriation. So as a result, I had to interact with everybody on both sides of the aisle. When we have a full house or 400 and something, congressmen and women and all 100 senators, and that created an incredible opportunity for me to see the full spectrum of the ideology, but to also recognize that for the most part, 99 plus percent of the people are trying to do good. They’re coming from a different perspective. They have different biases, and my role, I often felt, was to find a way to connect with them. I remember going to speak to a very conservative Republican who was part of the Freedom Caucus, because every year I would try to speak to as many of them as possible to make sure they supported Howard’s appropriation. Understood why Howard was there and why it was one of America’s best investments. And during the conversation, I remember him saying to me, you know, how do your students of single mothers, do you know in terms of graduation and retention? And I thought it was a strange question. And as you can imagine, my own bias was, where is he coming from with this? So I went back to the university, I had my team pull data on it, and sure enough, I had some surprising results. I called them up, and I said, Listen, you know, I was curious about your question. I didn’t have a full answer. I had a theory. And I said, but I found something out that you’d be interested in. And he’s like, Okay, well, what did you find out? And I said, the students who come from single parent homes, where the mother is a single parent, actually graduated at a higher rate than my students who come from two parent homes. I’m not sure where he where his question came from, and I knew where my curiosity to go back and look at it came from, but it left us connected around an issue that we both probably had very different thoughts about initially. And I think that’s an example of, you know, trying to make sure that when you hear people, you really listen to them, and you don’t just hear what it is you want to hear that your filters, and filtering, you know the part of the message, and so it was critical.

Dana H. Born: So there’s a lot of empathy there in terms of perspective, taking curiosity about what other people’s feelings are. I’m curious if there’s a time where you have felt judged, where people didn’t treat you with that same kind of empathy and how you how you try to shape and build that shared empathy in a culture of engagement?

Dr. Wayne Frederick: Yeah, I would say all the time I feel like I felt like that all the time. Being a university presence of fishbowl, people are constantly judging you an email, really, I was in the middle of doing several things. I was actually out of town, and it was about a housing issue, and I would back, and I said, you know, I don’t understand. I don’t like your tone. Antenna to an antenna was something I spoke about a lot. So my point was that we could express ourselves aggressively, but we could still maintain people’s dignity. And I know in an academic environment, some people feel it that censorship. Anyhow, she would take an excerpt from my email and basically put it on social media. And people would be like, Oh, my God, the student is asking about housing. And you know, you know, being paternalistic, talking to her about to an antenna. What most people don’t know is there was a story behind that. That same young lady, a few months before, would ask me about getting her scholarship back. She had lost her scholarship, had filed an appeal, didn’t get it approved, and I had published a financial aid office, especially since I was a student working financial aid, that I would never overturn any of their decisions. And I remember calling the director and saying, Listen, you have to forgive me, but I have to give the student her scholarship back. I think her grandmother died. I just felt an empathy. And so when I did that, that she worked me back a very nice email, I said to her, the one thing I always want you to remember is to pay it forward. Treat people well, even when you’re in difficult circumstances, you know, try to communicate the people in a way that would make them feel better. And she said, Oh, anything I could do to help, please let me know. This would be the same student who would basically blast me on social media, and, as the young people would say, would drag me, etc. And I. I remember going to my board when the whole thing kind of blew up, and I said to them, Listen, this is the story behind the story. Story I would not tell publicly why she’s a student, and they were, you know, I could tell they were disappointed, etc. A few months later, this probably happened in February or March. A few months later, in the summer, guess who would contact me again via an email, same student making the same request, and I quietly told the team that we were going to give her back a scholarship again, and they would looked at me like I was absolutely crazy, and I said that I was an education institution if young people can’t come here and make mistakes, or I was in judgment, then we should close because it means that we’ve decided who they are already. We have a prefabricated notion of how they should behave, and we don’t have an interest in influencing them.

Dana H. Born: And that really seems to align with the core values that you have at Howard University, which is really about the growth mindset, not a fixed mindset, as we in higher ed. Like to quote Carol Dweck work and your values were excellence, leadership, service and truth. And I guess my question now is to provide for us your perspective on how do we best develop people with moral authority to hopefully go into positions of formal authority so that we do have and maybe the end of the story of the young student that you gave a second chance to how that evolved into maybe someone who has a bit more moral leadership that hopefully will aspire to formal authority positions and pay it forward as you have in your life.

Dr. Wayne Frederick: Yeah, you know most of that moral authority lays lies within us. It is what we do when no one is looking, and ultimately what she would do with that experience. She’s the only person other than me that would know that story. We have to continuously be open to educating our young people in an honest way. There are truths and facts, there’s no doubt about that, but they also are interpretations of truths and facts. Their lived experiences that challenge our truths and facts, and I think we should always be willing to recognize that, and that as we lay out those truths and facts to young people, we should always say to them as well, this is what we know it to be today. Let’s be very clear. Part of the reason you’re here, there was a challenge there is to make sure that you know you see it from a different way. And when you close your door and you by yourself, and you have to make those tough decisions that all of those things are going into factoring you know how you make those decisions, and that ultimately, is where the ultimate moral authority comes from. It doesn’t come from the big speeches. It doesn’t come from the big, grand ceremonies. It comes from those quiet moments when you’re alone and you have to make that tough decision, and you can’t explain every single factor in that tough decision, but you know, ultimately, when you’ve made that tough decision, you’ve made it to that moral authority that resided within you.

Dana H. Born: President Wayne Frederick, I have one more question for our listeners as we round out this, how conversation on moral leadership, and that is with everything happening in the world. You know, moral leaders, ultimately are purveyors of hope. What at this moment in time is giving you hope for the future?

Dr. Wayne Frederick: Hope is the anticipation of tomorrow, and that every day as a cancer, what we get to do is to grant people hope, regardless of how slim that hope is. We see people in peril, people who have the will against them, people for whom tomorrow may bring pain, knowingly, and who still want to anticipate that tomorrow and ultimately that hope is what we want to breed in young people. I continue to have that optimism and that hope because of the two young people that I’ve had the opportunity to wear. I have a 19 year old son who was a Duke and doing very well, and my 17 year old daughter, who’s just committed to Colombia, she wants to be an orthopedic surgeon, those two young people in my house, I think, are anticipating a tomorrow where other people have their humanity amplified and so I will never lose hope.

Dana H. Born: I want to say thank you for the hope you’ve instilled in each and every one of our listeners. Dr president, Wayne Frederick, thank you so much for what you are doing to elevate humanity. I know that our listeners and I included are elevated to go pay it forward and to be part of this wave of moral leadership. You have been a terrific contributor and continue to be for the Howe Institute for society. So on behalf of our founder and our chair, Dov Seidman, and the entire. How team and all of our listeners, thank you very much, and we wish you all the best in this sabbatical transition. We know you’re going to keep making great contributions, and we are eternally grateful.

Dr. Wayne Frederick: Thank you. Thanks for having me.